Possible good news for the Jeep Wrangler

[OverlanderJL]

I don't want to get into a big discussion of the merits of alternative energy; that's for another forum. What I am asserting is that an all-electric off-roader would be very much superior to a gas powered one regardless of it's environmental benefits.

(And yes, the solar panels on my roof send more energy back to the power company than I use including charging my Tesla.)

Opinions are like assholes. I don’t want to see or hear yours.


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[TrailHunter]

I for one don't believe climate change has anything to do with humans, so the less regulation, the better.

100% Agreed!

 

[dwvninety]

I don't want to get into a big discussion of the merits of alternative energy; that's for another forum. What I am asserting is that an all-electric off-roader would be very much superior to a gas powered one regardless of it's environmental benefits.

(And yes, the solar panels on my roof send more energy back to the power company than I use including charging my Tesla.)

Why not just use one of these

 

[BillArnett]

I’m not talking about climate change. Or the pluses and minuses of alternative energy. That’s for another forum.

What I want to talk about here is electric drive as it relates to an off-road vehicle. The benefits seem pretty obvious: vastly fewer parts to break, vastly better torque curve, etc. The downside is primarily cost. And that’s improving rapidly (Tesla has a waiting list over 400,000 long for it’s $35,000 sedan).

The arguments about range and charging availablilty are pretty much moot these days. Don’t confuse what you’ve seen with a few home-brew electric conversions with what is possible with a serious engineering effort.

Let’s think for a moment about range in an off-road context. Last time I was on the Rubicon trail with my JK the computer said my current mpg was 1.8. Yes, less than two miles per gallon. That makes sense: most of the time on a tough trail one is going very slowly with a lot of time spend just idling. All that time the engine if pouring out heat without doing any work toward forward motion. Outrageously inefficient. But that’s an extreme case. My guess is that a more reasonable average for 4-low situations would be something like 10 mpg, which equates to something like a 200 mile range with a 20 gallon fuel tank.

By contrast, an EV uses ZERO energy when it’s stopped (aside from the trivial loads for the electronics). And its efficiency when going slow is actually better than when moving a freeway speed. On the other hand, all that bouncing around wastes a lot of energy in the tires and shocks. So my “educated guess” is that its efficiency off-road would be not much worse than its highway average. My Tesla’s range is conservatively about 250 miles at 75 mph (newer ones are a bit better). So I would expect an off-road EV with a Tesla-sized battery would have an off-road range at least as good as a Wrangler’s, probably a bit better, maybe a lot better. Bottom line: 200 miles is a heck of a long trail; range doesn’t matter.

 

[TheChucklesStart]

BillArnett, I think what you are looking for is http://bollingermotors.com/

This thing can supposedly get 200 miles range. I will be excited about those when they can get 1000+ mile range.

As for the CAFE standards, I think oil dependency is potentially bad for the US strategically, whereas electricity is a little more flexible in where we can get the fuels from.

However, I also think that the more people who have a vehicle like the jeep, the more likely places to take the jeep are going to be preserved and made available for us (instead of not being preserved, or preserved and not made available for public use, which is ultimately self defeating, imo).

 

[OverlanderJL]

I’m not talking about climate change. Or the pluses and minuses of alternative energy. That’s for another forum.

What I want to talk about here is electric drive as it relates to an off-road vehicle. The benefits seem pretty obvious: vastly fewer parts to break, vastly better torque curve, etc. The downside is primarily cost. And that’s improving rapidly (Tesla has a waiting list over 400,000 long for it’s $35,000 sedan).

The arguments about range and charging availablilty are pretty much moot these days. Don’t confuse what you’ve seen with a few home-brew electric conversions with what is possible with a serious engineering effort.

Let’s think for a moment about range in an off-road context. Last time I was on the Rubicon trail with my JK the computer said my current mpg was 1.8. Yes, less than two miles per gallon. That makes sense: most of the time on a tough trail one is going very slowly with a lot of time spend just idling. All that time the engine if pouring out heat without doing any work toward forward motion. Outrageously inefficient. But that’s an extreme case. My guess is that a more reasonable average for 4-low situations would be something like 10 mpg, which equates to something like a 200 mile range with a 20 gallon fuel tank.

By contrast, an EV uses ZERO energy when it’s stopped (aside from the trivial loads for the electronics). And its efficiency when going slow is actually better than when moving a freeway speed. On the other hand, all that bouncing around wastes a lot of energy in the tires and shocks. So my “educated guess” is that its efficiency off-road would be not much worse than its highway average. My Tesla’s range is conservatively about 250 miles at 75 mph (newer ones are a bit better). So I would expect an off-road EV with a Tesla-sized battery would have an off-road range at least as good as a Wrangler’s, probably a bit better, maybe a lot better. Bottom line: 200 miles is a heck of a long trail; range doesn’t matter.

Dude just stop already. Really you are the only one that cares. Tesla May be the worst reference being that they can’t make a fucking dime in profit and have loans out the ass. This is a Jeep forum, not a hybrid or electric car forum. Move on.


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[TrailHunter]

I think “Axial” builds a solid electric Jeep.


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[NFRs2000NYC]

I don't want to get into a big discussion of the merits of alternative energy; that's for another forum. What I am asserting is that an all-electric off-roader would be very much superior to a gas powered one regardless of it's environmental benefits.

(And yes, the solar panels on my roof send more energy back to the power company than I use including charging my Tesla.)

It would be terrible. You wouldnt be able to run, say the white rim trail and should things turn sour offroad where range is needed, youre SOL.

 

[NFRs2000NYC]

BillArnett, I think what you are looking for is http://bollingermotors.com/

This thing can supposedly get 200 miles range. I will be excited about those when they can get 1000+ mile range.

As for the CAFE standards, I think oil dependency is potentially bad for the US strategically, whereas electricity is a little more flexible in where we can get the fuels from.

However, I also think that the more people who have a vehicle like the jeep, the more likely places to take the jeep are going to be preserved and made available for us (instead of not being preserved, or preserved and not made available for public use, which is ultimately self defeating, imo).

Now add an ARB fridge, some offroad lights, some camping lights, and charge a few iphones, and maybe some AC in the arizona summer on your way to Tuweep point or BAR10 ranch, and you'll quickly see an electric offroader is as useful as a sh!tflavored lollipop. THe range will probably be like 40 miles. The only "alternative" fuel that makes ANY sense in an offroader is biodiesel. Diesel provides the power, and the range, which is what you need in an offroad vehicle, that and reliability.

 

[BillArnett]

It would be terrible. You wouldnt be able to run, say the white rim trail and should things turn sour offroad where range is needed, youre SOL.

White Rim is only about 100 miles. That shouldn’t be much of a problem.

Now add an ARB fridge, some offroad lights, some camping lights, and charge a few iphones, and maybe some AC in the arizona summer on your way to Tuweep point or BAR10 ranch, and you'll quickly see an electric offroader is as useful as a sh!tflavored lollipop. THe range will probably be like 40 miles. The only "alternative" fuel that makes ANY sense in an offroader is biodiesel. Diesel provides the power, and the range, which is what you need in an offroad vehicle, that and reliability.

Tuweep overlook is about 75 miles from Kanab, so 150 miles round trip. That’s no problem, either. The other stuff you mention won’t matter much except maybe for the fridge...I just looked up the specs on the biggest ARB fridge. It uses about 1 amp at 12 volts or 12 watts. So running it for 24 hours would use 12*24=288 watt-hours. That’s nothing, just over 1/4 of a kilowatt hour or 0.4% of a 100 kWh battery. Think of it as enough to drive about a mile. Hmm, maybe if you ran a bunch of lights for 8 hours... one of ARB’s big lights runs about 6 amps. So that would be about 1/2 kWh. Still trivial.

I’m not sure where you got your 40 mile range number. A big EV like a Tesla Model X or S gets about 3 miles per kilowatt hour. With at 100 kWh battery that’s 300 miles. On the highway at 70 mph. On an easy trail like White Rim or Tuweep it would probably be about the same. (That’s a guess based on my experience with my Tesla and my Jeep. The Tesla gets MUCH better mileage going slow. The Jeep gets much worse mileage on difficult terrain. I’m guessing these two factors will approximately cancel out, probably in favor of better range on easy roads and less on more difficult ones like Rubicon.)

Yes, it’s easier to carry extra fuel with gas or diesel. But my guess is that it will very rarely be an issue. Do the math; sometimes the answer isn’t what your expect.

 

[TheChucklesStart]

If you run the numbers and do the math, then lets assume you lift the vehicle and add bigger tires and see a 20% drop in efficiency. This is comparable to a 3 mpg drop some people report in their JK’s after lift and tires.

Then after three years, you get a 20% drop in capacity (because this is your dd). Suddenly your range is 130 miles in optimal conditions.

Also, a/c units are probably in the 500-1000 watt range which is why they are driven off of the engine, even in hybrid vehicles. That is 5-10kWh / day in Arizona, possibly even more. There goes another 20 miles off of your range.

Then there is the fact that I usually see around a 20% mpg disadvantage off-road, but electric vehicles should have an advantage there, so lets cut that in half. That gives you a more realistic 100 mile range off of your 100kWh battery with an advertised 200 mile range (which came from http://bollingermotors.com).

Seriously though, they are trying to make what you want, check them out. I suspect you can find some people who share your enthusiasm around there somewhere. Just be careful, running out of charge in an EV is going to be a much bigger pita than a traditional fuel vehicle.

I, personally, think EV’s have a long ways to go to prove there worth away from civilization, though, despite their advantages.


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[13_gecko_rubi]

You're right, we don't all agree. Much as I love my Jeep, if I had to choose between being able to crawl around on the rocks and leaving a decent planet for the future generations it wouldn't be a very hard choice.

BUT we don't have to make any such choice. It is well within the capabilities of the auto industry, even FCA, to product an all-electric "Jeep". If properly designed, it could be FAR BETTER for off-roading than anything currently on the market. (Tesla has already shown that an all electric sedan or an all electric SUV can blow the doors off the competition in the luxury market. They're well on their way to doing so in the mid-range sedan market, too.)

Think about it: get rid of the entire drive train (gas tank, engine, transmission, xfer case, drive shafts, differentials) and just put one motor on each wheel and a big battery under the floor (with a bit of armor). Very low center of gravity. (Get rid of the brakes, too, if the regulators will allow it; regenerative braking is fully capable of locking the wheels on any surface.) That's a LOT fewer parts to break. Software would control the torque to each wheel independently, no need for lockers. And the available torque from an electric motor makes a diesel look wimpy (top of the line Teslas have over 900 lb-ft) and it's all there at ZERO rpm. Plus the power delivery is super smooth and controllable, no waiting for the engine to rev up, no worries about being in the right gear, it just goes. It's hard to describe how much nicer an EV feels if you haven't driven one. And while that's nice on the highway it would be even nicer on the rocks.

I don't expect FCA's upcoming plug-in Jeep to be anything near that good. They'll probably just put an electric motor in a Wrangler chassis and probably keep the gas engine, too, making the whole system doubly complex. But as soon as someone builds an off-road capable vehicle designed from the ground up and an EV, I'll be first in line to buy it.

Someone already showed this full electric off road vehicle last year. Can't remember the name of it. Did you order one yet?

Edit: Helps if I read all the posts. I was thinking of bollinger.

Sent via....

 

[BillArnett]

If you run the numbers and do the math, then lets assume you lift the vehicle and add bigger tires and see a 20% drop in efficiency. This is comparable to a 3 mpg drop some people report in their JK’s after lift and tires.

Then after three years, you get a 20% drop in capacity (because this is your dd). Suddenly your range is 130 miles in optimal conditions.

Also, a/c units are probably in the 500-1000 watt range which is why they are driven off of the engine, even in hybrid vehicles. That is 5-10kWh / day in Arizona, possibly even more. There goes another 20 miles off of your range.

Then there is the fact that I usually see around a 20% mpg disadvantage off-road, but electric vehicles should have an advantage there, so lets cut that in half. That gives you a more realistic 100 mile range off of your 100kWh battery with an advertised 200 mile range (which came from http://bollingermotors.com).

Seriously though, they are trying to make what you want, check them out. I suspect you can find some people who share your enthusiasm around there somewhere. Just be careful, running out of charge in an EV is going to be a much bigger pita than a traditional fuel vehicle.

I, personally, think EV’s have a long ways to go to prove there worth away from civilization, though, despite their advantages.


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Now we’re getting somewhere. But I’ll quibble with your numbers.

First, we should start with a 300 mile highway range, that’s what Tesla does. And by the time anyone gets around to building my EVJeep batteries will be better (they’re already better for the newer Teslas). So lets start with 350.

20% loss because of lift etc is probably too much. That’s what a Jeep sees at freeway speed, mostly due to aero losses. That will be much less bad at off-road speeds. OTOH, an EVJeep will be much less aerodynamic in the first place (like the Bollinger). So maybe 20% is pretty good after all. So we’re down to 280.

20% loss after 3 years is much too pessimistic. My Tesla is 3 years old and is showing no appreciable loss of range at all. Friends with 8 year old Teslas are seeing something like 20% but that’s with older cells. I’ll trade in my EVJeep before this is an issue

Minus 20 sounds about right for 10 hours of A/C in AZ. So 260. So long as we’re talking worse cases, I’ll give you another 10% safety margin. So something like 230 miles of range is a pretty good guess. That’s more than enough 99% of what we use our Jeeps for; it’s more than I can count on with my JK.

Another point: this EVJeep isn’t going to be cheap. But then neither is a JL. If one could sell 200,000 of them per year (like the JK in the last few years) then $50,000 or so isn’t out of the question. (Tesla thinks they can make a profit selling Model 3s at an average selling price at less than $50k and volumes around 250,000 or so.) But it seems awfully optimistic to think that there would be that much demand at first. So the first EVJeep would probably have to be more of a Mercedes G-Wagon competitor than a Wrangler competitor. Experience with that could then go toward building demand for a cheaper one.

I agree that we have a long way to go to make the case for an EVJeep. The only real way to do that is to build one and see how it goes. It would be a major engineering effort. Which almost certainly cannot be justified as a business today. It’s just too small a market. Tesla could do it but they have far more important things to do for the next few years.

As for running out of juice out in the boonies, that’s a problem for gas Jeeps, too. Sure you can carry extra gas. But not an infinite amount. You’re just as dead with an empty gas tank as with a flat battery. If you really want infinite range you could power your EVJeep with solar cells. That would be expensive and VERY slow (5 or 10 miles per DAY). But it would get you home eventually. Is that silly? Or just relaxing?

 

[OverlanderJL]

White Rim is only about 100 miles. That shouldn’t be much of a problem.



Tuweep overlook is about 75 miles from Kanab, so 150 miles round trip. That’s no problem, either. The other stuff you mention won’t matter much except maybe for the fridge...I just looked up the specs on the biggest ARB fridge. It uses about 1 amp at 12 volts or 12 watts. So running it for 24 hours would use 12*24=288 watt-hours. That’s nothing, just over 1/4 of a kilowatt hour or 0.4% of a 100 kWh battery. Think of it as enough to drive about a mile. Hmm, maybe if you ran a bunch of lights for 8 hours... one of ARB’s big lights runs about 6 amps. So that would be about 1/2 kWh. Still trivial.

I’m not sure where you got your 40 mile range number. A big EV like a Tesla Model X or S gets about 3 miles per kilowatt hour. With at 100 kWh battery that’s 300 miles. On the highway at 70 mph. On an easy trail like White Rim or Tuweep it would probably be about the same. (That’s a guess based on my experience with my Tesla and my Jeep. The Tesla gets MUCH better mileage going slow. The Jeep gets much worse mileage on difficult terrain. I’m guessing these two factors will approximately cancel out, probably in favor of better range on easy roads and less on more difficult ones like Rubicon.)

Yes, it’s easier to carry extra fuel with gas or diesel. But my guess is that it will very rarely be an issue. Do the math; sometimes the answer isn’t what your expect.

It’s evident that the only experience you have is found on google and not real world. I’ve done tuweep before and it’s not as straight forward as you think. I also have an arb fridge and can tell you it’ll kill a battery if left alone. I’ve also done done plenty of long desert trips and can tell you that electric would suck. Give it a rest dude. You sound like a complete and total asshole with your my Tesla this and my Tesla that bullshit.


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[TrailHunter]

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[JTCO]

(That’s a guess based on my experience with my Tesla and my Jeep. The Tesla gets MUCH better mileage going slow. The Jeep gets much worse mileage on difficult terrain. I’m guessing these two factors will approximately cancel out, probably in favor of better range on easy roads and less on more difficult ones like Rubicon.)

Why are you comparing Teslas to Jeeps? I'm really confused on this whole thing.

 

[notnalc68]

View attachment 1832
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Lol. That sums it up.

Maybe we’d all be better off, if engines ran off of Pixie Dust and Fairy Farts, but I like the internal combustion engine.


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[BillArnett]

It’s evident that the only experience you have is found on google and not real world. I’ve done tuweep before and it’s not as straight forward as you think. I also have an arb fridge and can tell you it’ll kill a battery if left alone. I’ve also done done plenty of long desert trips and can tell you that electric would suck. Give it a rest dude. You sound like a complete and total asshole with your my Tesla this and my Tesla that bullshit.


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No need for personal insults, dude. I'm not sure what evidence you're referring regarding my experience but I can assure you than I've spend many miles and many hours on many kinds of off-road trails. Granted, I haven't done Tuweep (but now that you mention it, I'm putting it on my list). Is there something unusual about it that makes you think it would be more difficult for an EVJeep?

Of course, and ARB fridge will kill a battery if left long enough. IIRC, ARB says a fully charged car battery will last about 80 hours with their biggest fridge, though one would be foolish to push it that far. But an ordinary car battery is roughly 1% of the size of a a Tesla battery. Do you disagree with my math: 288 watts-hours per day, a TINY fraction of the kind of battery I'm thinking of in an EVJeep?

I agree that long desert expeditions might be a problem. Maybe given your screen name that's what you enjoy most? What's the longest trip you've done and how much gas did you carry? The longest trip I've done was about 200 miles in Death Valley (I had an extra 10 gallons without which I would have been stuck).

 

[BillArnett]

Someone already showed this full electric off road vehicle last year. Can't remember the name of it. Did you order one yet?

Edit: Helps if I read all the posts. I was thinking of bollinger.

Sent via....

Yeah, I read all about it. So far it's vaporware. It's a long, long road from a hand-built prototype to production at any reasonable volume. I wish them luck. I'll think about ordering when they announce pricing and delivery dates.

 

[BillArnett]

Why are you comparing Teslas to Jeeps? I'm really confused on this whole thing.

Because those are the two relevant vehicles that I have experience with. What I want is something with Jeep's off-road capability and something like Tesla's motors and electronics. I just use Tesla as an example of what you can expect from an EV drivetrain in terms of range and power. And my experience driving both as it relates to how efficiency varies with speed and terrain. It's obvious that an EV drivetrain is much more efficient on the highway. And I think it's probably the case that it would be much more efficient on the trails, too. Probably much more. Which isn't a very high bar given the absolutely horrible efficiency of a Wrangler in 4Lo.

The range discussion is actually not the most interesting part of an EVJeep. More interesting, I think, especially for this forum, is what the rock-crawling experience would be like. Everyone seems to want a diesel Jeep for its better low-end torque. But an EV is far superior in that respect: it has its maximum torque at zero rpm and it has a lot of it. And thus it can get by just fine with a single-speed transmission. It seems to me that such a thing would be a lot easier to handle on the rocks.