If you think saving the planet is nonsense then I wish you would move to another one

Should Bill Arnett shut up and leave?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 83.3%
  • No

    Votes: 1 16.7%

  • Total voters
    6

wayoflife

Administrator
Staff member
No, it’s not. It’s the opinion of the vast majority of the scientific community.

Key words here are "opinion" and "majority". That is hardly what I would call "scientific".

But of course, that’s an ad hominem argument. In an ideal world you would examine all the available data yourself and reach your own conclusion. But in the real world few of us have the ability to do that. Especially in a case like this where it is extremely complicated and where there is such a vast amount of data to analyze. Laymen like most of us here have to rely on “executive summaries” and references like the ones I mentioned. And weigh those against the arguments made by others on the other side of the issue. And yes, ultimately it may come down to who to trust. Do you think the oil industry scientists are more trustworthy than the academic ones?

It’s also an ad hominem argument when you say in essence, don’t believe in climate change because Bill drives a JL with 37s.

I am indeed conflicted about my JL. I do the best I can to live up to what I believe. But I do love the outdoors and I’m too old to do much backpacking. So I need a Jeep to get to my favorite places. I’ll trade it for an EV off-roader as soon as I can. (I’ve even though of building a custom EV off-roader by chopping up a Tesla. I could probably hire a shop to do the mechanical stuff but there’s no way to get inside the software.) In the meanwhile I do what I can and vote for politicians that at least recognize that there’s a problem.

For the crying out loud, would you just leave already! I never said that I didn't believe the climate is changing - I just DON'T think it's the end of the world or that the planet needs to be saved like you do. To me, it's just change! We as humans have been ADAPTING to it since we came into being and I am okay with that. Clearly, you think differently and that's cool but just know, YOU are contributing to the problem you faithfully believe exists.

Now, this is the last time I will respond to you. I am NOT interested in listening to a hypocrite preach at me and so I am now asking you politely to please leave my forum.
 

NFRs2000NYC

Member
Replying to your PM here....

What's going on in the garden is equilibrium. Trees and plants grow X amount, however much CO2 is available for them, and they then produce oxygen. Over time, if CO2 is increased, the plants will grow until equilibrium is again reached, and more oxygen is produced. If CO2 declines, over time, the plant life will shrink. The 97% of scientists statistic is completely made up BS. If you are REALLY interested in the science aspect of it, stop listening to the idiot politicians pushing an agenda, or university studies whos funding DEPENDS on them reaching a predefined conclusion.
 

JTCO

Meme King
Replying to your PM here....

What's going on in the garden is equilibrium. Trees and plants grow X amount, however much CO2 is available for them, and they then produce oxygen. Over time, if CO2 is increased, the plants will grow until equilibrium is again reached, and more oxygen is produced. If CO2 declines, over time, the plant life will shrink. The 97% of scientists statistic is completely made up BS. If you are REALLY interested in the science aspect of it, stop listening to the idiot politicians pushing an agenda, or university studies whos funding DEPENDS on them reaching a predefined conclusion.

My brain hurts, but this shit still makes sense.

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13_gecko_rubi

New member
I do get out and enjoy the places my Jeep can take me. Maybe not as often as you do or as often as I like but it’s way I have a Jeep (learning rock crawling was an unexpected bonus).

On Rivian, it seems backwards to think a JL is less complicated than a Rivian. An electric drive train is a LOT simpler than a gas powered one. There’s just a big battery (no moving parts), a motor (or 4) (very solid well understood tech), and some electronics (no moving parts). There is no air cleaner to clog, no gas tank to rupture, no fuel pump to fail or gas lines to break or exhaust system to smash. No fuel injectors to clog or cams or pistons or rings to wear out. No transmission, no transfer case, no shifters. Gas powered drive trains have been optimized for a century and are now amazingly reliable. And EV drivetrains are only a decade old now (in real volumes) and hence not quite as optimized. But Tesla drivetrains have gone more than a billion miles by now with very few problems. If Tesla made a version with big tires and a skid plate under the battery I would not hesitate to take it anywhere I’ve taken my Jeeps.

Actually the Rivian is much more complicated than a JL. The controls to run those motors is extremely complicated. Before I worked where I do now, I worked for General Electric making diesel electric locomotives that have full electric drive. The only difference is rather than huge batteries they have a huge diesel generator. The stuff in modern EVs isn’t new, it’s been around a long time. It’s just super expensive.

Granted there are fewer moving parts in theory. But there are still 4 motors, 4 gear sets (that’s more than your JL has), wheel bearings, axle shafts, etc etc. and those batteries require the same or even bigger cooling system so that all still exists.

I would totally take an EV off roader as the instant torque is awesome. But I wouldn’t want one til it has the same range as my gas vehicle and the ability to charge it quickly (like same time as it takes to fill my gas tank fast).

As for the world ending stuff, ya I’m not even getting into that debate, they moment you started talking about AOC in a non negative manner I knew there was no way to win a battle on that lol


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sharkey

Word Ninja
Of all of the stupidity in this thread, the belief that Tesla is a good company and is somehow a steward of the environment might actually take the cake. Ask anyone who knows anything real about one of their gigafactories, as opposed to just what they read, and you will find out that the whole thing is just smoke, mirrors, and snake oil.


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sharkey

Word Ninja
I may actually have to retract my prior statement. The fact someone thinks AOC is qualified to be a part of our legislative branch is the most fucktarded thing I have read in quite some time.


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BillArnett

New member
Actually the Rivian is much more complicated than a JL. The controls to run those motors is extremely complicated. Before I worked where I do now, I worked for General Electric making diesel electric locomotives that have full electric drive. The only difference is rather than huge batteries they have a huge diesel generator. The stuff in modern EVs isn’t new, it’s been around a long time. It’s just super expensive.

Thanks for bringing this back to engineering instead of politics.

What’s new is that with the advent of lithium batteries they’re a lot lighter. And we’ve learned how to control AC variable speed/torque electric motors. Tesla didn’t invent either of those, they just put it all together in a car (with a lot of tweaking and optimization). And now it’s no longer super expensive. Just a little expensive. Today you can buy a Tesla Model 3 for $35,000 (before credits).

Granted there are fewer moving parts in theory. But there are still 4 motors, 4 gear sets (that’s more than your JL has), wheel bearings, axle shafts, etc etc. and those batteries require the same or even bigger cooling system so that all still exists.

Mostly right. Of course, there are a lot of parts that both kinds of cars need. But when you count up all the gears in the transmission, transfer case, and the differential(s) that will be fewer than in a 4 motor EV. Teslas have one motor per axle so they still need a differential on each axle but a 4 motor design doesn’t. All that’s needed is a simple reduction gear for each motor. A 4 motor design might even be able to eliminate all the u-joints (a major source of failure in Jeeps) if the motor is integrated with the wheel. Looks like Rivian didn’t go that route, though. The Tesla cooling system is actually a little smaller than a Jeep’s (since there’s not so much wasted energy) but it’s still there.

I would totally take an EV off roader as the instant torque is awesome. But I wouldn’t want one til it has the same range as my gas vehicle and the ability to charge it quickly (like same time as it takes to fill my gas tank fast)...

My JL has a 20 gallon tank and gets about 15 mpg. So 300 mile range. My Tesla’s range is about 240 but newer Teslas are over 300. The Rivian claims 400 (it has a much bigger battery). As for charging time, yeah, occasionally that can be an issue but only occasionally. On road trips I can almost always combine my charging with a lunch or bathroom break. And at home instead of spending 10 minutes at a gas station each week I spend 3 seconds each day pluging in in my garage. I think I’m actually coming out ahead on refueling time.
 

BillArnett

New member
...I would totally take an EV off roader as the instant torque is awesome.

Yeah. But what’s more important for off-roading is that the torque curve is absolutely flat from zero to about 60 mph. Lots of folks seem to like diesel Jeeps because of all their low range torque. An EV is like that only much more so. And more than that is the fact that not only is the torque always there when you want it but because the torque curve is so flat it’s much easier to control with the right pedal. It’s very smooth and linear in a way that’s hard to describe but very easy to appreciate. It’s instant not only at a stop but at any point in the range you have instant response for more (or less) as needed.
 

13_gecko_rubi

New member
Thanks for bringing this back to engineering instead of politics.

What’s new is that with the advent of lithium batteries they’re a lot lighter. And we’ve learned how to control AC variable speed/torque electric motors. Tesla didn’t invent either of those, they just put it all together in a car (with a lot of tweaking and optimization). And now it’s no longer super expensive. Just a little expensive. Today you can buy a Tesla Model 3 for $35,000 (before credits).

No problem the engineer in me likes to debate. "we've learned how to control ac variable speed/torque electric motors"...

Again where I worked before, we had that technology and launched it in 1994!!! Again it's just $$$. Price and cost are not the same thing. Tesla looses money on every single vehicle they sell. You cannot stay in business like that. The only reason they turned a profit at all is because they sell their green house gas credits to the other automotive companies for hundreds of millions of dollars. That revenue stream disappears for 2021MY so we'll see how it goes then.

The constant torque of EVs in an off roader would be awesome like I said. But again range is key. On a commuter vehicle where can make it round trip to work and home no biggy. I take my Jeep off roading a minimum of 120+ plus miles away every time I go. So to get there, wheel all day, and get home I'd need range of 600+ miles (wheeling range is way less than normal range). Most trips I go 8+ hours away. And when I'm going on a long drive to a remote area to wheel I'm not going to stop multiple times and wait for 1/2 hour plus to get 60% charge in my EV. Again imo range and charge rates have to get to same as gas and there has to be an entire network of chargers like gas stations are now. Based on the current EV vehicle sales rate of around 3% and the projected rate over the next 5-10 years maybe doubling at best, the vast majority of people feel the same way. Will mass adoption happen some day? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell.

Sent via....
 

OverlanderJL

Resident Smartass
There’s a Supercharger in Moab. And over 700 more in the USA. And many more slower chargers. When I had my Tesla Roadster 10 years ago it was a bit of a challenge to take a road trip. But now it’s trivial. And with the Rivian’s 400 mile range on the highway and maybe 200 on the dirt I challenge you to find a place that’s that far from the nearest EV charger.

The fact that you use Moab as an example when I said middle of the desert proves that you are an idiot. And you are talking about a vehicle that isn’t even in production and never will be in production. Go out to Nevada with gas stations that are 150+ miles apart and go wheeling and tell me it’s doable in your electric vehicle. Hell you can even take your Tesla on some of these roads. Your ass would die out there.


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notnalc68

That dude from Mississippi
Of all of the stupidity in this thread, the belief that Tesla is a good company and is somehow a steward of the environment might actually take the cake. Ask anyone who knows anything real about one of their gigafactories, as opposed to just what they read, and you will find out that the whole thing is just smoke, mirrors, and snake oil.


Sent from my iPhone using JL Wrangler Jeep Forum mobile app

Bam! That just happened. I hope anyone that is investing in the stock, knows when to get out (that moment may have already passed).


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JTCO

Meme King

I want to apologize to you for how passionate I was with my opinions last night. I still think you and AOC are completely full of shit and are a direct threat to the liberty of the people of this great nation with these fairytale ideas but I probably could have toned it down a little. It really pisses me off how more and more people like you and her won't just leave the rest of us the fuck alone with this stupid shit.
 

JAGS

Member
Changing minds on the Internet doesn’t work. Doesn’t matter which side your on. The stupid ass progressive, far left movement has learned nothing apparently. Thanks for proving my point bill.

Only thing more wild than the crazy talk is bringing up said crazy talk on an Internet forum for fucking Jeeps. [emoji15] Hey, let’s change the subject to something more digestible here.....complete gun ban anyone. Discuss. Lol.

Bill, maybe you have good intensions, who knows. But please stop. It looks pretty ridiculous and I can assure you you are helping no cause.
 

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